14c28n steel vs d2
Hello everyone I've been loking into twosun knives recently. What is AUS10A Steel? - knife Insight D2 steel offers better edge retention and wear resistance than 14C28N. Knife Steels Rated by a Metallurgist - Toughness, Edge Retention, and I would also suggest adding a hardness rating to the ratings tables that currently include toughness, edge retention, and corrosion resistance ratings. AEB-L is a non-powder steel produced by Swedish steelmaker Uddeholm. Its a costly and challenging process, but it makes extremely fine-grained steels, some of the best for knives, and makes some processes that were previously impossible a reality. Privacy Policy. 2. Im not hating on 80crv2 , Ive used it. However, the relative difference in toughness between these different examples are similar. In other words, Rex 121 would be the most difficult to sharpen and 5160 and 8670 would be the easiest. Knives are one of our oldest tools, so it makes sense that they have evolved into thousands of styles since the first person chipped one out of stone. in the correct place for the stainless-toughness-edge-retention graphic? Properties: 14C28N: D2: Edge retention: 4/10: 7/10: Ease of sharpening: 6/10: 3/10: Corrosion resistance: 4/10: 4/10: Toughness: 6/10: 6/10: CIVIVI Knives Elementum Folding Pocket Knife 2.96" D2 Satin Blade . CPM-S90V is my favorite in the high edge retention category because of its decent toughness. D2 is mainly considered decent budget steel that comes with better edge retention than the 14C28N. D2 is carbon steel that has high toughness and durability. Lots of information is still specific to this article, however. And we list budget-friendly knives that have a professional style and grace to them. Despite its wonderful performance, XHP is actually not terribly expensive compared to other high-end, all-around performers. in relation to hardness). I test corrosion resistance of steels by heat treating 1 x 1.5 inch coupons, finishing to about 400 grit, and then spraying with water. All Rights Reserved. The hardenable grade of titanium (Beta C Titanium) reaches up to 45 or so rc. In fact Id be delighted to have your experience checking my thinking! D2. This doesnt necessarily mean they have terrible toughness, but they have limitations. I like it. Chris Reeves version, which is about two points less hard than others, is quite good. Is 14c28n A Good Knife Steel? [Complete Steel Guide] For example, the Si space is blank for several of the carbon steels because they have a relatively wide acceptable range, not because the element isnt added. https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/12/03/cryogenic-part1/ If you want to learn more than keep reading past the ratings. Therefore you will use it for a long time without requiring frequent sharpening. These images are taken from my book Knife Engineering. If you want a sharp knife for outdoor or indoor use, D2 knives will not disappoint you. Or even a 7 in both categories. GearJunkie Copyright 2013 2023. Here, we will discuss edge retention, toughness, ease of sharpening, and corrosion resistance. These properties make steel a good choice for making kitchen, fishing, and everyday knives. The material increase machinability and strength. Like S90V, its a high-hardness steel, but its more balanced than S90V. As wear resistance is increased the differences between conventional and powder metallurgy steels become greater. Steels high in toughness are excellent for knives likely to see hard impacts, like large chopping knives. On the other hand, in d2 air-hardness steel, you cant differentially temper the blade-like other high carbon steel because the steel can also be challenging to sharpen. 440A For the steels that I rated I give them a single rating rather than a range based on different heat treatments that can be performed. Any thoughts how Sleipner might fare in the ratings? Why do knives make the best gifts? 14C28N is a stainless steel that was developed specifically for use in knives. Low Carbon steels like AEB-L wont hold up to wood cutting even though it can hit 64 hard, it just doesnt have enough Carbon.. Not to sound like a ship, but these two knife inspiration makes this an eye-catching knife. Even it enhances corrosion resistance and wear resistance. Theres a green triangle at about RC 60.5 and toughness over 40. 14C28N is a type of high-performance stainless steel used in knife-making. If you want to learn more about a specific steel, you can click it in the sorted listings below. CPM-REX 121 and Maxamet are both in this category. I was the heat treater, but after HT to only 58-59 hardness the blades went to the surface grinders for finishing and I remember them going into the packing boxes with mirror polished edges. Among Vancron SuperClean, Agomi #1 and Shirogami #1, Which one tends to have finer grain size and Sharper edge? These are Chinese-produced steels that recently started showing up in Chinese-made knives. Read more about how it works here. However, high wear resistance means that abrasives are used up more rapidly, more careful grinding is necessary to avoid overheating, finishing and polishing is much more time consuming, etc. Powder metallurgy steels with low vanadium content like CPM-1V and Z-Tuff/CD#1 have extremely high toughness. we dont know. It is a Sandvik stainless steel that originally developed for razor blades. 1095 rex 121 There is a powder form, CPM-D2, and PSF27 is also very chemically similar. . great work, larrin. Pretty interesting that regrinding a knife you already have can seemingly take its performance to that of significantly better steels. -> Maybe prequenched 14c28n could be a little tougher than AEB-L? Properties: 14C28N: D2: Edge retention: 4/10: 7/10: Ease of sharpening: 6/10: 3/10: Corrosion resistance: 4/10: 4/10: Toughness: When describing the characteristics of a steel, a few common attributes are commonly talked about. Blue Super and 1.2562 have higher edge retention but relatively low toughness. Also, if you want a fishing knife, 14c28n steel will survive better in wet areas than D2. I also have meat cleaver 1,4116 ,58RC that I order and was looking up if its a good steel or did waist money and need to return it. If you are looking for a high-end knife on a budget, the varieties of both steel will serve you. 2) you do not go into the sharpening in much detail. In particular, I have found the ESEE/Rowen 1095 to be less likely to chip and better at holding an edge than the KA-BAR version even in knives with the same role, thickness, and blade length. A European powder-metal steel used in higher-end knives, Elmax has an advanced formula, and the result is a very good all-around steel, a generation ahead of formulations like 154CM. how much more can you bend/pry with it? In other words, heat treating a steel to its maximum hardness does not necessarily mean reduced corrosion resistance. It wont hang long with high-end powder metal steels(a method of making steel using ultra-pure micrograins of steel that are heated and pressed together). Its an update of its 12C27 and 13C26 steels, which were developed for use in shaving razors. Steel with high wear resistance is more costly to manufacture, as the knife company goes through more abrasives to grind the knives. Let's compare 14c28n steel with other steels, and for this, I use four criteria; Edge Retention, Corrosion resistance, Ease of Sharpness, and Toughness and on a scale of 1-10 (10 being the highest) let's see the performance of each steel. 1. Its hard to say. It has excellent edge retention, corrosion resistance, and ease of sharpening. Dr. Thomas is a friend of ours here at Blade HQ, and with his help, weve worked to create this knife steel guide. I also added a few more steels in this study. The biggest factor for cost of knife steel is whether it is produced with conventional ingot technology or powder metallurgy. Even though it has very high hardness, its also still decently resistant to corrosion and quite tough. However, the 14c28n provides perfect edge retention with a maximum hardness of 62Hrc and the mixture of Chromium and Carbon. Or is this an argument that tends to be rooted more in the presumption that Japanese steel > Chinese steel than any practical difference in reality? Anthony Sculimbrene authors the blog EverydayCommentary.com. Im going to give the ratings first and then give more explanation about how the ratings were created. The steel was developed to be free from chromium carbides which gives it properties similar to balanced non-stainless tool steels like CPM-4V and CPM-CruWear. 440C steel Your email address will not be published. Vg10 and cpms45vn same toughness at same hardness ? The D2, on the other hand, has a thicker and more durable blade that is better suited for tough tasks like chopping wood or prying open cans. But it doesnt have great wear resistance and thus doesnt hold an edge particularly well. Water is a severe quenchant that can often lead to warping or cracking. there seems to be an optimal procedure for every alloy (provided its heat treated to industial standards). Corrosion Resistance: D2 steel has a higher chromium content than 8Cr13MoV, which makes it better at resisting corrosion and wear. YMMV It is most useful for steels with large amounts of carbide but also helps to be able to add certain carbide types. The best scenario is when the steel, heat treatment, and geometry are selected for the knife and the use. show very different and even inversed behaviour (e.g. As with high alloy tool steels, the amount of vanadium can be a shortcut to predicting the general level of wear resistance and edge retention. One such person is Dr. Larrin Thomas, a professional metallurgist raised by a knife maker and a giant knife nerd. Is this at the same hardness? In fact, its not technically a steel at all, as it uses titanium and nickel. The ratings I have are for an optimal heat treatment. All rights reserved. [Steel Knife Review], Best survival knife sword: 5160 steel Review, What is VG 10 pocket knife? 52100 Both knives were chopped through a nail. H2 What it is: 14C28N is a Sandvik stainless steel commonly used in razors and kitchen knives. My name is Jonathan M, and Im a passionate Mechanical Engineer, a knife enthusiast, and the author of this website. Despite its age, its a truly superior steel. AEB-L On the positive side, they are very easy to forge and grind. The value being slightly different doesnt mean its an outlier or measurement error. There are still a few things I dont know but we have enough information to make educated guesses where data isnt available. Obviously Ill let you check the manuscript prior to publication. 14C28N is offered on midprice knives and is one of the better steels on a dollar-for-dollar basis. thanks thats interesting. D2 steel is more durable than 14C28N, but it scores lower in terms of ease of sharpening and corrosion resistance. Approximately the same hardness, yes. have extremely high edge retention. Now that we know what each factor represents, we can see how the steels rank against one another. The knife does dull faster. Thanks to its very high hardness (64-66 HRc compared to the average of 58-62 HRc), ZDP-189 can be ground thinner and sharpened less often. Steels that are improperly heat treated have excess retained austenite which makes them extremely difficult to deburr. The ultra high corrosion resistance steels Vanax or LC200N max out around 60-61 Rc instead. Heres a brief description of their impact on the resulting steels properties. my understanding is that wood is not a particularly abrasive material and a plane is more of a push cut action than a slicing action so I would have though edge stability and sharpness is more important than edge retention meaning ABE-L should work pretty well. I was struggling to simplify all the Rockwell/Youngs Modulus stuff for readers when I came across your site. And below shows a chart of carbide hardness, the equation we created to predict edge retention based on edge angle, hardness, and carbide volumes, and then the chart showing the good correlation: TCC (mm) = -157 + 15.8*Hardness (Rc) 17.8*EdgeAngle() + 11.2*CrC(%) + 14.6*CrVC(%) + 26.2*MC(%) + 9.5*M6C(%) + 20.9*MN(%) + 19.4*CrN(%). Rex 45 D2 steel also offers similar toughness levels as the 14c28n steel, so both aren't really prone to chipping with proper use. My other knives are a Real Steel E77 8cr14mov. If you purchase this types of knife, without any hassle you can easily re-sharpening. How do its properties compare to other steels? High Alloy Tool Steel and High Speed Steel Ratings. I have a couple questions, not directly related to this specific post, that I wanted to ask publically so that others could find your responses as well, so here seemed as good a place as any. It would be really useful to have the raw data that backs the charts that you produce. Or, is this perhaps a historically useful practice that made sense on softer/less tough steels, but would make less sense on some newer steels that can be used at higher hardness and thus higher edge stability? Its hard to imagine a more rust-inducing environment than saltwater and fish guts. The steel is susceptible to overheating during hardening do not overheat. Its probably in between Vanadis 8 and 10V. first there might have been some annealing going on (even if its was a microscopic level) and the steels might have reacted differently. Alloying elements are an important ingredient vital in getting the best steel for the job. Like 154CM, there is a newer version, S35VN, which shares many of the same attributes as S30V but is easier to craft into a knife thanks to niobium. You showed some pictures in this article of the effect on what we might call "effective toughness" of thinner edge angles vs thicker edges in the same steel at the same hardness. Stainless steels usually top out around 64 Rc and may require careful heat treating to get there. When we plot toughness vs edge retention on a log scale instead we get a straight line that is a better visualization of toughness differences. Stainless steels are another subset of high alloy tool steels that have enough chromium in them to have stainless levels of corrosion resistance. Socould you please clarify which steel is the outlier and which is the line>. 14c28n steel and D2 steel are both high-quality knife steels. Bohler N690Co Stainless Steel: Is N690 a Good Knife Steel? - KnifeGuides Hi there, Though technically not a stainless steel at least 14% chromium, and D2 usually has 12% its relatively corrosion-resistant. Editors note: This article was first published in May 2015 and was most recently updated on May 25, 2020. The benefit of this, of course, is that the steel holds an edge for a very, very long time. Its easy to sharpen. The most traditional models of pocket knives have different parts, such as the handle and cutting performance. I would like to see the rating and performance on test of the Chinese Steels, that some people use to say its cheap garbage, like 3Cr13MoV, 4Cr13, 4Cr13Mo, 4Cr14MoV, 5Cr15MoV, 6Cr13MoV, 7Cr17MoV, 8Cr13MoV, 9Cr13MoVCo, 9Cr18MoV, 9Cr19MoV, and the 14cr14MovNB to see if they are similar, worse or better than the steels that they copyi believe we gonna have some good unexpected results. Also Mo additions improve corrosion resistance for a given amount of chromium. So presumably, wear resistance would be in the 3.5-4 range and toughness in the 5.5-6 range. It richly deserves its reputation for high-quality gained over the years by Sandvik, a Swedish manufacturer of world-renowned steel. does 1.4116 deserve the title of title of ultimate trash steel? We should be suspicious of anyone who is claiming very high edge retention with a steel at low hardness and a small amount of carbide. D2 steel also resists chipping better than most stainless steel types. Anyway, buff up the O1v and it cuts leather easily. They have many similarities, including their high hardness, strength, and wear resistance. Knifemakers use dozens of steel types to create knife blades. most knives are being made out of these and other mediocre steels like 14c28n, 420j2, 425m. Read more. This is a midprice steel with matching performance. what does a cvn of 40 v.s 20 mean? Steels that are higher in hardness and wear resistance are usually lower in toughness. 14C28N The Vargo Sobata 398 is unlike any other knife on this list. We can predict edge retention of a steel within a relatively narrow band based on hardness and carbide volume. The most significant cost increase comes from powder metallurgy, used to create most of the expensive knife steels. You can see micrographs of different knife steels to compare their carbides in this article. On the other hand, these types of steel provide high wear resistance and toughness. It shows 3 stainless steels from 750-800tcc but the edge retention graph only has 1 SS in that range, S90v. In many cases the cost of working with the steel for the knife companies is more significant than the cost of the steel itself. Anyway, astute comment, but edge retention does mean a lot in woodworking. A good quality knife must have sharpness, great edge retention, and a sturdy handle. Does that mean that companies like Tops, Kabar and ESEE would be better off using 420HC instead of 1095 on their fixed blades? It isnt impossible, but contrast may not be very good and the austenitizing temperatures of the two steels arent very compatible. 1060 This is the basis on which I do the ratings rather than a linear scale. Sorry about the misinformation. Which knife for best? Knife Steel Guide - Knife Life - Blade HQ : at a given toughness, magncut will have better edge retention in real life applications than s90v if it has optimal geometry (or maybe it wouldnt, just an example). And only Vanax and LC200N have been free from corrosion with a 3.5% saltwater solution, though MagnaCut was close. However,M390, CTS-204P, and CPM-20CV are all pretty difficult to resharpen, so maintain that edge! Continue with Recommended Cookies. I guess the question is whether toughness increases faster than edge retention decreases. After the steel is quenched it is reheated to a lower temperature to increase toughness and decrease hardness. Thats a pretty large difference in two budget steels that are often compared to each other. The excellent corrosion resistance properties of 14C28N are attributed to the high amounts of chromium in its composition. 14C28N vs. D2. Below are some great ways to make your knife your own. If you look at the chart you may notice that at high toughness levels if you increase edge retention by only a relatively small amount you get very big drops in toughness. Hello LARRIN, do you have a Rough estimate on when ApexUltra (as well as more Magnacut) will become available? Rowens heat treat on ESEE knives that use 1095 is exceptional; KA-BARs is less so. 14C28N steel is known to offer the highest toughness levels out there. An example of data being processed may be a unique identifier stored in a cookie. It is certainly possible for a knifemaker or heat treating company to do a heat treatment that will have suboptimal properties. However, Kershaw asked Sandvik to make their 13C26 steel more resistant to corrosion, and the result was 14C28N. Why do you give a coin with a knife as a gift? nevertheles its importand to keep in mind what exactly is going on there (abrasive plastic media, loss of most of cutting ability during the first few strokes etc.). I will be focusing on CATRA edge retention which measures abrasive wear of knives. I dipped each in lemon juice and left in open air and tested after 30, 100, and 300 minutes, dipping in lemon juice again each time. The Sandvik 14c28n steel is ideal for the manufacturing of steel knife blades. This is a bit of a guess because I cant find un-notched Charpy data on it. Damascus or pattern welded steel is a result of combining two steels together. The table shows combinations of knife steel properties for different classes of steel. I would suggest adding a second axis to the ratings charts that show the data values that the 0-10 ratings are based on (unnotched charpy impact energy, 1% saltwater , Total cards cut, etc.). Steel produced in China is generally less expensive. We use a subsize, unnotched chapy test with 2.5 x 10 x 55 mm dimensions. There seem to be a lot of modern steels that get related to D2, but OTOH just saying a steel is similar to D2 seems to kill interest in it. Are you familiar with anything similar on the metallurgy/knife steel side of things? Steels without these attributes are much less costly. If you shop for knives based strictly on steel, you might be disappointed. Furthermore, because of its ultrahigh hardness, Maxamet is very prone to corrosion, probably worse than 1095. 8am-5pm Saturday. Corrosion on knife steels most usually takes the form of rust, patina, and staining. I have a few examples below for steels that I have ranges of hardness tested for both toughness and edge retention. While some are into that type of thing, if youre familiar with a specific steel and want to compare it with another, you should definitely click on that button below. Developed by New Jersey Steel Baron, Nitro V is a non-powder steel marketed as an enhanced version of AEB-L. Nitro V, as its name indicates, adds nitrogen to AEB-Ls formula to make the steel even more corrosion-resistant. then you have zirconia and diamond coated blades. I was wondering if the 14c28n sample was also prequenched like the AEB-L toughness samples? 14c28n vs vg10: What's The Best Steel - Knifeyellowpages 1.4116 got a 2.5 for toughness and edge retention where as 420HC got a 9 for toughness and a 2.5 for edge retention. Not impractical fantasy knives, but these two knives that have a col look to them. Both steel types don't chip easily, but 14c28n steel is easier to sharpen. The consent submitted will only be used for data processing originating from this website. This is a virtually stain-proof steel suitable for all sorts of aquatic environments. On the other hand small but mighty, the pocket knife provides both in professional performance and in arresting good looks. (Some crazy folks clean their Swiss Army knivesin adishwasher. Can you contact me via my email address so I can send you a copy in PDF and epub. Poor heat treatment can make a knife too hard, too soft, hard to sharpen, easy to deform, or cause other issues. 14C28N steel is known to offer among the best if not the best toughness in knife steels out there. LC200N is produced with a special technique to add high nitrogen, giving steel excellent corrosion resistance on the top! Would love to see where S7 sits on the Corrosion/Edge/Toughness meter. Note that corrosion is detrimental for the cutting edge. Thank you for the accurate data. I see very little about cryo outside of journal articles, and I wonder which knifemakers use it. Cool! Toughness and edge retention are generally opposing properties and it is difficult to improve both of them at the same time. 14c28n vs. AUS-8 Steel Its a good balance between all three attributes, being relatively hard, tough, and corrosion-resistant. Heat treatment refers to the heating and cooling steps employed to achieve your knifes proper balance of attributes. I always thought VG10 to be way more chippy/less tough compared cpms45vn. Spyderco has produced several production knives with Maxamet, and the steel debuted on the ZT0888. Thanks! Because of the material difference, the blades differ in toughness, edge retention, corrosion resistance, and ease of sharpening. 14C28N Leek: D2 Leek: jonnymac44 Joined Sep 27, 2007 Messages 7,674 Oct 21, 2008 #2 Hey Michael, First off, the new 14C28N from Sandvik is just now hitting the streets, and I don't have any results just yet for you. Conventionally produced steels include AEB-L, A2, 52100, 12C27, 14C28N, and AUS-8/,8Cr13MoV. The big difference in properties vs the low alloy steels, however, are the harder carbides that are found in these steels. and yet millons of knives are being made out of 1.4116 (aisi 420mov?) These steels are best for knives that dont see impacts and are some of the most difficult to sharpen. Thanks to Bill Smutz, Alex Topfer, Florian Bachler, Brunhard, Art, Rod H, Sach, Jinny Koh, Jon Duda, Cory Henderson, and UPKnife for becoming Knife Steeel Nerds Patreon supporters! How would n680 compare to m690? https://www.patreon.com/Knifesteelnerds, Click to share on Twitter (Opens in new window), Click to share on Facebook (Opens in new window). Display: 24 per page Sort by: Featured View CIVIVI Voltaic Flipper Knife Stainless Steel Handle With Micarta Inlay (3.48" 14C28N Blade) $88.30 Add to cart Later, it gets heated and compressed into one ingot. Take a look at this edge retention test. And while youll find it mostly in expensive knives, quite a few approachable M390 blades exist. Hammering through hickory, digging at roots in sandy soil, and cutting around bone did nothing to chip, dent, or roll the edge of my 3V knives. CROMOVA What is 14c28n Steel? is it good for knife? (Complete Steel Guide) Though the volume of carbonitrides in the steel is relatively high. It has an HRc over 70, usually even harder than Maxamet. It can withstand a lot of wear and tear. : knife a with a toughness of 5 and an angle of 20 degrees will perform as well in edge retention as knife b with a toughness of 3 and an angle of 15 degrees. This isnt exactly how steel works; different properties are difficult to increase without affecting something else. I know it's much more stainless and corrosion resisitance, but what about wear resistance? Id like to quote some of your toughness, edge retention and corrosion resistance for balanced midfield steels, including yours, in some data tables. A cryo treatment and close temperature control is necessary to achieve those hardness levels. Thanks again for everything you're doing, it's a tremendous resource. Ease of sharpening refers to how difficult it is to remove material with a sharpening stone. But unlike most high-end steels, SPY27 is an easily user-serviceable powder steel. 14C28N knives offer excellent corrosion resistance and toughness. Dr. Thomas you spoke of using a different media for cutting test and I have some extra veg tan leather and was wondering what are the parameters of the leather you need? 14c28n Steel Review - Knives & Gear You cant look at only the chromium content of the steel to know the level of corrosion resistance. The 14C28N stainless steel from Swedish manufacturer Sandvik is considered an upgrade to their 13C26 steel (described below). the following is not a critique, just a few thoughts to maybe put the relationships into a wider perspective and point to additional dimensions. 2. On the spreadsheet, youve grouped AUS-8 and 8Cr13MoV. 8Cr13MoV vs D2 Steel what's the difference? - Honey Badger Knives Since the heat treatment is done before you get your knife, and its impossible to tell how good the heat treatment is with your eye, you often must rely on the manufacturers reputation for a good heat treat. Using controlled furnace heat treating resulted in toughness around 23-28 ft-lbs at 61-62 Rc, while the knifemaker heat treated specimens were 7 ft-lbs or below. 14C28N knives are better than D2 knives in corrosion resistance. But weve tested this metal in the form of the Sobata 398 for nearly a year and have been continually impressed. As to a difference between 8.6 and 8.5, all of the ratings here are rounded to the nearest 0.5 because better than that probably shows false precision. He is the mind and writer behind Knife Steel Nerds, the go-to source for all knowledge about knife steel. Instead, Vargo titanium uses a unique material called sintered titanium-ceramic alloy. G10 That way you can get into the steel ratings quickly. LC200N 20? Plus the charts get messier, and I dont always have data for a wide range of hardness values. That said, it's not as tough as many other steels and exponentially tougher to sharpen. Why wouldnt it be possible to make a damascus steel out of (say) AEB-L and s90V, or wouldnt that gain the best of both? The stainless steel rating. compare different heat treats of the same component, it lacks a theoretical foundation and its not clear how to relate it to the real world. Many steels are very similar to one another but go by different names from different manufacturers. Thanks! 14C28N is the highest-selling steel of Sandvik, a Swedish steel company. There are a lot of different types of steel out there . Tanto If the properties of a knife meet your knife needs and it has the above characteristics, then it qualifies as a quality knife.